The Power of Women to Change the World: Freedom, Equality & Women’s Rights in Iran

0:00 Welcome to Inspire and Impact, the podcast where purpose meets perseverance. This is where transformation begins and your story continues. Welcome to Inspire Impact Podcast Show. I’m your host, Daniel Rosenstein. Today I have the honor of interviewing Zolal Hobby. She’s the human rights and women’s rights advocate of Iranian descent. has dedicated more than 25 years of her life to advocating for human rights and democratic change in Iran. She’s based in France. Solal uh serves on the Foreign Affairs Committee of the National Council of Resistance of Iran and speaks internationally about human rights, women’s empowerment, political prisoners, and the future of Iran. Her connection to this work is deeply personal. When Zal was just seven years old, her father, an Iranian writer and political dissident, was killed during the 1988 massacre in Iran. The tragedy helped shape what will become a lifelong commitment to advocating for people whose voices are often unheard. So, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Thank you, Daniel, for having me. It’s a pleasure to be with you and please allow me to greet those who are tuning in to the podcast today. [snorts] Fantastic. Well, I’m very excited about this conversation. It’s a really big thing. Um, you know, uh, Iran is in the news a lot for now. Uh, so a lot of people are are learning about it. But for you, it’s not just something in the news. It’s been a a lifelong uh, passion, mission, and a big part of your identity of who you are. But before we get into uh Iran and activism, can you maybe share with the audience a little about like who you are beyond like the headlines and political work so people have more more context about yourself? Well, um as you mentioned, I’m um

1:54 I’m activist for the situation in Iran uh against the current regime. I um I was born and raised in the US to parents who were um activists, Iranian activists um who had actually come to the US before the 1979 revolution. So unfortunately I belong to the generation that has never actually had the chance to visit Iran. Uh even though I could literally say there hasn’t been a day that I haven’t thought about the plight of the people of Iran. Um and um yeah, so I grew up in a family or in a household that activism and taking your responsibility in whatever um situation that you’re you’re dealing with um was important. And so that’s something that became like a part and parcel of who I was and what um the activities that I had. Um, as you mentioned, due to the fact that my father was a prominent writer and a human right activist, I got introduced to the human rights situation in Iran very early on. I think I was about probably four or five years old the first time I met people who were victims of torture and I knew that this is the reality in Iran even as you know as a 3 four year old child. And um I guess that also gave me a different perspective on things in life to know that you know there’s so much that we take for granted on day-to-day basis. Um but knowing that you know people are denied these basic rights that we take for granted ma made me um I guess cherish those rights and those you know liberties that we have and also u feel responsible in safeguarding that and um so always standing for whatever I felt was right or you know justice meant

3:45 something for me. It wasn’t just a word. It was something that you know I felt very strongly towards. Um I guess things changed for me when I was um seven because till then this was the situation in Iran and we were living abroad. So even though I knew that that reality it wasn’t my reality. Um but when I was seven um my father was killed by the regime and so that changed everything in my life and also my perspective and I realized that you know no matter where you are you can still be directly affected by these dictatorships and also you can also make an impact um on these circumstances and um so that summer actually the summer of 1988 wasn’t only a turning point in my life personal life but also uh in the history of Iran because that summer over 30,000 political prisoners were executed in a matter of a few weeks, five, six weeks and to this day unfortunately uh the perpetrators of that massacre have um have benefited from immunity and um they have not been um they have not been held accountable for the crimes that they have perpetrated.

5:03 Um, so fast forward, I mean, I think that for me, one of the major turning points in my own life was in in the summer of 1999. Um, I had just graduated from high school. I was on the path to go and study medicine. I had gotten a full scholarship and everything. And, um, that was like the road map ahead. But, uh, July of 1999, student uprisings broke out in Iran. And [snorts] this was the first time after over a decade that we’re seeing a major uprising take place in Iran. And it was also the first time that it was people from our generation who were coming to the streets because it was like the student uprising. And um it was also the first time that this was being broadcast to the world because it was the start of cable television and CNN and whatnot. So we were seeing the footages coming live from Iran and that just um those few days were very difficult for me because I kept on looking at these scenes and images of you know students being thrown over buildings by the suppressive forces and killed on the streets and thinking to myself like what is your responsibility?

6:17 Are you just going to be a bystander and just watch um and just hope for the best or are you going to do something about this situation? Or do you think that it’s the responsibility of those who are living under these unbearable circumstances and under suppression inside of Iran to do something um even though you have both the understanding of what is happening and you have the privilege of living in a democracy where you can actually do something for them. And so that was like the turning point for me and that’s why I decided to join the Iranian resistance. Um, and it has been 27 years this week that I have joined this movement. Uh, that [snorts] that’s definitely a very long time and I’m sorry about all the things that you had to go through and and it’s must be very extremely difficult and I mean I guess I live in a privileged world living here in the United States like you know to me it’s like I get upset when my car breaks down. It’s like, you know, but it’s a totally different uh understanding about life than the people on Iran have to go through. Uh I I think a lot of people may who listen to this podcast, you know, they’re probably familiar with the war that’s going on between United States and Iran, but they may not be familiar with the history. Can you maybe give us like a shortened version of the history of Iran last 50, 100 years to maybe like help the explain to people in the audience like how did we get to the situation now? Like you know why why and how does this war come about? like why are there so many problems in Iran? Well, um Iran uh is as you mentioned before, it’s been it’s a very rich civilization with a rich history in culture and everything, but it’s also very rich in natural resources. Um and

8:09 it also plays a very important geopolitical role in the region uh in the Middle East. I think there was um a quote from Henry Kissinger that said if you want to control the world you need to control the Middle East. If you want to control the Middle East, you need to have control over Iran. And that um due to that there have always been a lot of foreign interest in play when it comes to Iran and you know the situation of the people. But due to our rich history in culture um the fight for freedom in Iran has been continuous. Um if you look in the last 100 years we had since so 120 years maybe um since the 1906 constitutional revolution that we had in Iran. Um the people of Iran revolted then against um the status quo which was a government that was being controlled by um foreign interference be it from Russia and also from the British. So um that was the situation that they had and they wanted to put an end to this type of monarchy that all the power was in the hands of one person and so and they wanted to push forward toward a more democratic system. So they were they created the first parliament and uh they wanted to have you know at least have a um constitutional monarchy instead of like the complete dictatorship. um even though their direction was actually to go further than that but I mean in 1906 that’s where they were and um unfortunately it was very short-lived and then um the British they came and installed a um resi uh he was um a someone in the army and

10:05 through a coup d’etat they had him um placed in an office because he was willing to serve their purpose. purpes and their goals. And so the British felt like he would be someone who could do that. And so that was the end of the Gajar dynasty. And then came Reshan. His last name wasn’t actually Panabi. That’s the title that he chose. But um he came into power a few years down the line. Um especially when we were getting closer to World War II and whatnot, the the you know um Western powers realized that Bezahan he was aligning himself more with Hitler and Nazi Germany. And um so what they did was they actually had him taken out of office and sent into exile and they replaced him with his son. His son was Mad Pavi who was known as the Sha to the west. Um he came into power at first he wasn’t very strong and he had he he also knew that he had to stay in check because everything that had happened with his father. I mean he didn’t even have the willpower or strength to um his father died like two years after he was sent into exile. he wasn’t even able to bring his father back to Terron to be buried for you proper burial ceremony or anything like that. So that was the reality of the Pathi dynasty. And then um when during that time because the people of Iran understood that he was not in the position that his father was they tried to use that time to try to grow a bit um into a more democratic system. And so we had the only actually

11:56 democratic government that Iran has ever had was Dr. Mosadv. He was the prime minister um for two years. And um when Dr. Masadv came into power as prime minister, he um nationalized Iran’s oil and that was something that Western powers really did not want. um till then uh only about 8% of Iran’s fuel uh Iran’s um income from its fuel went to the people of Iran. The rest was being taken by British petroleum. And so um when Dr. Masaduk nationalized Iran’s oil, he really cut in a way a very strong lifeline of the British that way. And um so and also because Iran plays a very important role in geopolitically, it started like a ripple effect in the Middle East of other countries standing in face of these um governments who um were were you know were um taking their national resources or they were you know dictating to them or whatnot. So we saw it like in Egypt and in other countries that this movement, nationalist movement started growing in independence and whatnot. And so that was something that the west saw as being dangerous. And so uh there was a coup d’etat carried out against Dr. Mosadv and he was overthrown uh through that coupetar um by the MI6 and the CIA in um what is known as project Ajax and um so unfortunately that only democracy that we actually had

13:48 was very shortlived and only lasted two years. After that the sha knew that he had the support of the west and so he started ruling with a iron fist. He formed the Savak, which was like the notorious um intelligence ministry of the Sha who was known for its torture and executions and whatnot. Um people I mean the Sha turned Iran to a one party country and said um the only party that we have is if you don’t like it either leave the country or you’re going to be arrested. and he saw himself as the he said I am the shadow of God on earth. So that was the sha uh the people of Iran um they weren’t giving in um even though the circumstances were very hard after the you know the coupeta against Dr. But they still continued their fight for freedom and against the sha and which led to the 1979 revolution.

14:53 But the reality is that the 1979 revolution it was during the cold war era. So about six months before the fall of the Shaw, the West actually realized that the Shaw was on the brink of falling apart and they knew that he wouldn’t be able to survive, especially after September 8th, 1978 where he opened fire on peaceful protesters and about a thousand people were killed in the streets on that day in Iran. And um so at that time this is 6 months before the revolution um Kmeni who was in exile in Naja for 20 years he was brought to Paris and western powers met with him uh in Guadalo and they made you know deals with him um because in the cold war era mentality they thought well he is religious figure he is opposed to communism So um maybe it is to our interest to have him because Iran has a very large common border with the USSR at that time. And they were like well the revolutionary organizations and activists who have been creating this revolution in Iran we don’t know where they’re going to align with because they’re progressive movements. Um so our safest bet is to have Humeni come into power and unfortunately with foreign intervention again Humeni was brought into power and those who had actually created this revolution were imprisoned um till January 20th 1979. So um about 2 weeks before the revolution they were they were released from prison and that was already too late because Kmeni had complete grip over everything at that time. And so um that is why I mean

16:49 Iranians have this hesitance towards foreign intervention because our history shows that foreign intervention is the reason that we actually have um even though the people of Iran have paid the price for revolutions throughout these years. It has been very short-lived and hasn’t given the fruit of democracy to the people of Iran because there were foreign interests in play. Um and we are where we are today because of you know that foreign intervention to some extent. But also even throughout these last 46 years, if you look at the policy of appeasement toward the Malas and how it has bought time um for the regime and in fact you know at the negotiation table with the regime and in these you know as they appease western powers appease the Iranian regime be it because of interest or because out of fear because Iran is the number one state sponsor of international terrorism. the bargaining chip at the table has been the people of Iran and their organized resistance. So the reason that the regime has not been overthrown yet is isn’t because the resistance isn’t capable of overthrowing the regime. It has been the foreign aid that has come to uh extend the lifeline of this regime. Um which we have been um the the the first you know cards being used as bargaining chips. Just this week actually after 23 years um one of um a French judge he actually has um spoken out about this and he has revealed that how the Iranian resistance was used as a bargaining chip in negotiations with the regime by

18:40 France. um in 2003 when there was a raid against um the office of the NCRI and it led to the arrest of over 165 people and um also unfortunately it led to a international um campaign to be able to you know um stop this because they were trying to extradite these members of the Iranian opposition. to Iran which would be a disaster for not only the resistance not only for the people of Iran but also for any refugee anywhere in the world but when because it sets a precedent um and it actually led to you know people’s lives being lost and now after 23 years this judge has come forward and said this is what happened this is how they were used as bargaining chips at the table and this is why there was that raid on June 17th, 2003 in France. And um this full conversation has now been bit made public. And to me, I mean, we knew this the entire time, but the fact that the judge, one of the judges who worked on this case now that his because till now he he couldn’t speak about this because there’s like that time period that you’re not allowed to, you know, disclose this information. But now he is coming forth and saying this. But the price that has been paid for it, it took about 15 years to try to um set things straight um in the court process in France. And to this day, that is one of the labels that’s still used when they want to mention the Iranian resistance. They’re like, "Oh, this is

20:30 the background though. They were, you know, placed on the terrorist list. They were this was done and that was done." No one mentions that. Oh, all of that was because part of the policy of refusements. So, um, but the reality is that for for 22 years, the people of the Iranian resistance specifically and more specifically Mrs. Bajabi, who’s the president-elect of the National Council of Resistance of Iran, she has stated that the solution to Iran is neither war nor appeasement. um it is supporting the people of Iran to bring about change because at the end of the day appeasement eventually leads to a war. Um but war is not the answer to to Iran specifically. Um considering both its history, its geopolitical location and um even if you look at it from just a purely middle military perspective, it’s not going to lead to the overthrow of the regime due to the nature of the regime, but also due to the you know the the situation on the ground um in Iran. So that is something that maybe when we said it 22 years ago many didn’t take it seriously but I think these days now everyone is seeing it with their own eyes that that is not the solution. So the solution was neither war nor appeasement but um it is now time for the international community to open its eyes and see that it is time to stand by the people of Iran to bring about change.

22:01 Well thank you so much for sharing that. I I mean I I didn’t know about that thing about the judge in France that said that. Uh that was very interesting. It was just actually just um this week uh this was revealed but um I could share that it has been translated into English so I’ll share that with you so you have it for your own understanding. Uh definitely that’s really interesting. I I did hear a few years ago, I don’t remember the exact year, there was a guy who was a refugee from Iran living in France and France uh he had like I don’t know if he belonged to the resistance movement but he had like a um a podcast or a radio show and he was saying you know bad things about the current regime and France I mean the Iran requested France to extradite him back to Iran. They did and he was executed just because he was saying things and and and you know from my perspective as an American we believe in free speech and and you know people say pro and negative things about the current government or previous governments and you know people are have strong opinions about politics but like as you said in Iran that that’s not an option. There’s no free speech when it comes to politics. It’s like you have to play along with the status quo and whether you like it or not and speaking up can mean really costing your life or the people that you love. Um but I I want to ask you because you’ve been in this activism now for a very long time. [clears throat] What has it been like? Have your like thoughts, beliefs changed over those year years or has it been like pretty consistent throughout the years? like like did at one point you think like war was the answer and now you know you say it’s it’s not obviously not working or did you feel like ever like you know changing your mind about things or was it I’m just curious to know because like I mean 25 years is a very long time it is um definitely nothing stays

23:54 constant um you because the world is changing you can’t stay constant um and I think that um over the years maybe my belief has grown more. Um there were certain things that maybe like there were certain things that as a principle I knew that they were important but I think over the years I started having a different understanding of why it’s so important to stick by these principles um and by these you know um and why it’s so yeah the the necessity of it like for instance I out of you know my personal experience and just because of everything that I had heard about how things were during the sha’s time and whatnot. So I I always was opposed to the sha and opposed to the mullas too both but it was a personal preference maybe in a lot of ways but like for instance in recent years I realized that but it was always one of the core principles of the NCRI is to believe in a secular democratic republic. So meaning not a monarchy or a religious tyranny that we have right now. So it opposes both. Um but in recent years I have realized why it was so important to draw that line and why it becomes important is it’s not that like for instance you’re saying oh um there shouldn’t be freedom for people to voice different opinions or have different political

25:44 mindsets. That’s not the issue. The issue is at its core um whatever is in contrast or in contradiction with people’s sovereignty and with having a truly democratic system. So any form of dictatorship you need to draw your lines with that because um at the end of the day they’re not going I mean the fruit that they give is not going to be a democracy and that is something like for instance that over the years I have um understood why and why it’s so important to draw those lines and those distinctions or like for instance I remember back in the you know late 90s when Katami came into power. We from day one the NCR said a viper never gives birth to a dove. This regime is unreformable and Katami is not going to be able to reform this regime. In fact, he is part and parcel of this regime. that is why he has been brought into this position. And at that time there are a lot of people both Iranians and you know in the international community that they had hopes in reform.

27:02 But the reality is that I think that comes from a lack of understanding of the nature of this regime. The nature of this regime is the vala having that supreme leader and whatnot. it can’t contradict itself otherwise it’s going to collapse. So even if Katami is brought into office it’s to strengthen the regime not to weaken the regime. And it’s very important to understand that. And I think that um what was interesting for me is if I realized that maybe back in 1997, I think we saw in like 2017 that one of the main slogans of the uprisings in 2017 in Iran was um reformist hardliner. The game is over. We’re not going to fall for this good cop bad cop scenario anymore. And it it is the end. we’ve reached the end of that line. And I think it’s really interesting for me to see how Iran’s society has evolved over these years in regards to these principles and these values. Um, in the last decade, we’ve had four major uprisings in Iran. And each time you see it evolve, like the message and how how radical it is, all of that, you see that evolution in it.

28:20 And I think that that is um truly something that is incredible. Um these days as we’re speaking right now, we are in during the anniversary of um the uprisings that started after the tragic death of Masoa Ammini who was killed by the suppressive forces in Iran and it led to a nationwide uprising. And I think I remember the world was in awe by seeing, you know, how women of Iran are taking center stage in these protests. But what was important is that that wasn’t something that brewed overnight. that was the result of over three decades of women’s empowerment in the Iranian resistance and the ripple effect that it had in uh Iran society to have the main opposition movement actually have women in leadership and being led by women as the antithesis to the mulas and uh to the misogynist regime ruling Iran. And I think that it’s um yeah that has been an interesting journey to be able to have a deeper understanding of a lot of the notions that we stand for or why it is that we stand by these principles and we we go out of our way to safeguard them and even if they might not be popular sometimes.

29:47 But what’s important is for you to stand by those values and principles and safeguard them to be able to continue this path. Now, I mean, you you you kind of stated a few times, you’re not kind of happy with the current government or even the previous government. It’s been, you know, a long time since um Iranians were really free from, you know, um both internal oppression as well, as you said, foreign um meddling in Iranian politics. But what is like in your point of view, what is like the ideal situation that that you’re hoping to achieve? Well, I think the the um that ideal uh I can um say it is represented in the 10point plan presented by Mr. Baji for the interim governments of um after the fall of the regime. Um but it would be a Iran where um the ballot box is the final criterion that there’s actually as I said people’s sovereignty and that is very key and very important um a Iran where execution and torture are all um you know abandoned and actually abolished completely um to put an end to this cycle of killing and executions that the people of Iran have suffered for from for you know a cent or decades um if not more than a century um I think it has been continuous under all dictatorships and um to put an end to all of these suppressive forces the IRGC or the internal guard or whatever you want to name them they need to be eliminated completely uh aan where there is you know a independent judiciary system where um there is gender equality um in

31:37 equity actually um and a Iran where all Iran’s ethnicities and religious minorities are respected and their rights are preserved and um that you know every there’s no prejudice in between you know different people and they’re not treated differently. Um and also a Iran where there’s like you know um a non-nuclear Iran which is in peace and um you know st you know stabilizing force in the region um and at peace with its neighbors and in their international community because right now unfortunately Iran is the number one state sponsor of international terrorism. Um and um also unfortunately it is also the leading niche country in executions per capita. And it’s um ironic that I was looking at a report from 1976 and back then Iran was the leading country in executions per capita and today Iran is still the leading country in executions per capita and that is how the people of Iran have suffered under um two types of dictatorship. One was a classical dictatorship, a classical monarchy. Um, and the other one was the religious theocracy that we’re dealing with today. Um, which has nothing to do really with religion. They’re just using the name of Islam to to be able to um justify their crimes and to hide under that pretext.

33:15 So, I mean, you’re talking a lot about like the the oppression that goes on in Iran with the executions, the arrests, the political prisoners. What do you think like people outside of Iran misunderstand about, you know, what’s going on in Iran? I think one of the most important things is that to understand that there is a solution to Iran. So, as I mentioned, the solution is neither war nor appeasements to support the people of Iran to to create change. But there’s also a road map ahead that it’s not we’re not stuck between choosing between two different types of dictatorships as I mentioned um either going from this regime which is you know the worst case scenario to what was before which was also a dictatorship the people of Iran revolted for a reason in 1979. Um it’s that the people of Iran want to move forward in the 21st century to have a secular democratic republic. Um, I think one of the things that’s less known about Iran is that we have the greatest brain drain in the world. So, I think that the greatest asset that Iran has, it’s not what’s under its soil um and natural resources. It’s it its people. But that those people, the elite of Iran are being, you know, executed right now as we speak. Um, there are elite students in in the prisons of Iran with 16-year, 15 year, 20 year prison sentences for standing for justice and for standing for freedom. Um, people that any country would look at as asset. Um if you look at the people who’ve been executed in just the past few months, the political prisoners, those the protesters from January, the you know among them you find people who are you know sports

35:08 champions, you find u people who graduated at the top of their classes and universities and were considered geniuses really. Um and this is how Iran treats its elite. Um, so just imagine a country where these people could actually serve their own people and their country and to be able to push Iran forward to where it should be. Um, and for it to take its, you know, just place in in the international community. Um, so I think these are things that people don’t know much. And I think one of the things that also is differentiating between the people of Iran and the regime. I think it’s very important to know that the people of Iran have never given in to the status quo. Even according to the regime itself, less than 10% of the population support the regime. And the reality is that since 1979 till now, if you look um from practically the onset from a few months after the revolution, people started voicing their opposition to Humeni and to the to this um system because Humeni when he came in he he lied to the people of Iran. He deceived the people of Iran. He said, you know, um, he said, I am a elderly man, a religious man. I’m going to go and continue my studies in home. I don’t want to have anything to do with politics and whatnot. And that was not the reality. And um, step by step, he he turned that system to a dictatorship. And in fact because he knew that Iran has this rich culture of resistance um and that education has always been a corner stostone stone in Iranian culture. One of the first steps taken by

36:59 Kmeni was that he um shut down all universities in Iran for three years. Why? because he knew that that was like the hot bed where you know revolutionary minds came together to be able to create change um in in the system and to be able to overthrow the regime. And so he even went to that extent to try to keep his grip on power to shut down universities for three years what he called the cultural revolution. And then we saw also like in the Iran Iraq war um which lasted eight years. Um the reality is that that war could have ended after 2 years but Humeni continued it for six because it was allowing him to keep his grip on power and he sent 450,000 children on minefields to open the minefields instead of using mind sweepers. So a a government that has this kind of a outlook on its on its future on its you know um that I think speaks volumes for itself. Um the fact that they would give these plastic gold keys to kids and tell them this is the key to heaven and you know they would wrap them in blankets and roll them open on minefields to open mines. I mean that is how um unvaluable life is to this regime and you know a regime that does that with its children you can imagine what it does to its own people um and you can imagine that it’s not going to show mercy to anyone else either and that has been a reality that the people of Iran have lived with but I think on the other hand we see the fact that 120,000 people have been executed for just supporting the Iranian resistance throughout these years. So they have never been given in

38:55 and they continue to fight and even these days we hear you know this new wave of executions that has started after the after the war of political prisoners and protesters. Every single one of them when you see hear their stories um you see how steadfast they were um in standing by their beliefs, not giving in, not giving up. And the regime wanted to be able to spread fear in society by having these executions. But it’s having a reverse effect on society because it is spreading the message of resistance and resolve and bravery to the people of Iran and they are turning into a inspiration to the younger generation instead of creating fear in society and that’s why we see Iran right now is in a very explosive state. This is like a keg waiting to explode. Um and the reality is that um if I want to outline in regards to the war and where we stand today exactly I think that at the end of the day for the regime the war is more convenient for the regime than peace would be. So actually the Iranian regime strives on the continuation of war because that way they can justify the fact that first of all um they don’t have a full running government right now and right now they have been able to hide under the pretext of oh we’re at war not to be um giving a response to the you know to the Iranian people and to the international community about where this government actually stands who is behind this government. Right now they have this excuse to not be clear about where

40:49 it’s going. They it has given them an excuse because after January the regime knew that you know any moment uprisings can break out in Iran. So they have been able to implement a full u you know uh martial law in Iran for months now under the pretext of war and that we need to be prepared for war and to keep everyone silenced. Um in 2026 practically half of 2026 the people of Iran were in a complete comm communication blackout which was justifiable by the regime because of war. So the regime has really um benefited from war uh at the end of the day even though it’s been a extreme blow to them. The fact that has been eliminated in the current situation um the reality is that I think the world has now seen that bombing from above is not going to overthrow this regime. Um the solution lies with the people of Iran and the reality is that the situation of Iran is complex. Iran is, you know, when you in comparison to Iraq, it is like I think uh four times the size of Iraq and three times the population of Iraq and um well troops on the ground is not very likely because we have every terrain that you could possibly think of. We have the mountain ranges, we have deserts, we have um you know the forest and whatnot, jungles up on top of Iran and then we have the bodies of water. I think these days everyone knows straight of hormones now but because of those circumstances um the reality is that troops on the ground is not likely in Iran. So the regime knows that the US knows that and so that’s why the regime doesn’t fear war at the end of the day. They know that it’s just buying time for them and they

42:42 make jokes jokes about it that yeah well we have these drones that cost cost us between 500 to $5,000 and we’re able to target heavy military equipment of the US which is billions of dollars and we just saw the Pentagon report that just came out too in this regard. So at the end of the day, the regime is like we can drag our feet with this situation. But the reality is the thing that the regime fears the most right now is another uprising. So that’s why they are willing to drag their feet with the war to be able to prevent another uprising from taking place. Um and the reality is that you know the circumstances on the ground are unbearable right now in Iran. uh in January people came to the streets because this is economic crisis in Iran. That economic crisis has not gotten any better. It has gotten far worse. Uh literally people can’t have ends meet. I mean bread is becoming a something that not everyone can afford in Iran society. um a country that over 80% of the population is living under the line of poverty, complete poverty that uh in a rich country like Iran, it’s just unbelievable. And so, and the regime can’t resolve this issue. So, this is something that is imminent. There will be another uprising and this summer it’s going to be far um more radical um and it will evolve in that process. Um and that is what the region fears the most. What do you think that uh women who live in United States or Europe or anywhere in the world can learn from the women in Iran from people like yourself that are

44:35 like speaking out about women’s rights and stuff like that because it’s such a different dynamic you know what do you think you know women can learn from Iranian women? What can we learn from them? Um I think there’s a lot that can be learned actually but this is un unfortunately this is one of the issues that we have been spoken about as much as maybe we should but um the positive experience that the Iranian resistance has had. This is something that’s unprecedented I think anywhere else in the world and in history really. Um for now it’s been over 30 30 something years almost 40 years actually that we have had women’s empowerment in the Iranian resistance. Um and when I speak of Iranian resistance, um even though it does to some extent cover the NCRI too, but more specifically I’m speaking about the MEK or the people’s mojo organization of Iran. Since 1985, they have had women’s empowerment um as like a key pillar um especially in their leadership. Um and that has extended to the to the pace that in 1993 the entire leadership council of the the MK became a allwomen le um movement and in fact it has continued to today and just um about two weeks ago they chose their 10th um female um secretary general um and that is something that has opened the path in this fight and it has been a key pillar of this movement. Um and what is very important is how they have been able women have been able to overcome so many obstacles and break so many glass ceilings that exist in society. And in

46:31 fact the experience that we’ve had is like the men in the Iranian resistance they are strong supporters and advocates of women in leadership and why it’s necess necessary in this society and in fact they feel that the path to the emancipation of human beings be it women and men men both goes through having women in leadership and creating this equity which will lead to equality. And I think that has been a very extraordinary experience that the Iranian resistance has had. And we see the ripple effect inside of Iran. And the reality is that I um as like I was your typical teenager when I was in the US. I mean, and I remember I started realizing that I didn’t have a lot of the glass ceilings that girls around me or my age had. I think when I was about 15 or so. Um, back then it was the in 1996 it was the world’s um women’s conference in Beijing and Hillary Clinton at the time was first lady and she was a keynote speaker there and there she coined the the the motto women’s rights are human rights and human rights are women’s rights and I remember back then it was looked at as like such a pioneering and revolutionary statement but to me I was like of course women’s rights are human rights and human rights are women’s rights. What is that? Because at that time, Mrs. Rajari was saying women are the force for change and they are the ones who are going to create that final blow to K and whatnot. And so I was comparing these two and I was like, you know, that just doesn’t go. U Miss Raji she had a motto that I grew up with as a child and that was we can and we must we can and we must overcome all obstacles and no matter what area and that always gave me

48:29 strength to you know propel to forward and move forward and um also the fact that it wasn’t just mere words I had you know these amazing role models in front of me who had overcome so many obstacles and they were you thriving and they were moving forward and I think that that is um part of the story of the resistance that has not been told too much but I hope that one day the circumstances will arise for us to speak about it more. We do have a international women’s day conference usually every year on international women’s day or so and um we discuss like the latest developments in this regard in the resistance. I know women um uh both philosophers and you know university professors and whatnot from around the world who actually make a note to make sure to be at this conference every year to see like how we have been able to move forward because to them this is something that’s phenomenal and um I know people who have been you know attending these conferences for 30 years now and without missing it any year because they feel like this is extraordinary that this movement has been able to accomplish this as part of their fight against the regime. It’s not about because a lot of people they look at these things as like oh um I guess their understanding of feminism and things. It’s very different. It’s like pushing away half of society to be able to promote half that’s just wrong. That’s not how it works. But the fact that in this movement we have been able to um help both men and women grow um and by opening these shackles that really these gender roles that really uh

50:24 are shackles on people’s hands and feets and to be able to um release that energy and potential that exist in every single human being and to um derive from that and to be able to move forward with that. So I want again like I want to go back to like your experiences of being an activist. I I find it so amazing that that you’ve been continue on this path for so long because sometimes people they they get excited about like a movement such as like yours and then like you know a year later they kind of like burn out ah like you know I I I need to go this. So I now that you’ve been in this movement for so long, what do you feel that um you’ve gained by being part of this movement and what do you feel like you’ve lost? Like I think I read somewhere like you were when you were younger you were thinking about maybe becoming um going into medicine as a profession instead of this chose this path instead. So you know it could have been a very different life. So what do you feel like as being an activist for so long? you think you’ve gained and lost? It’s just a curious question. It’s like, you know, what is your mindset about all of that? Well, I think that uh I have definitely gained a lot from it. Um because the reality is that at the end of the day, what remains from each and every one of us is the values that we represent and we’re able to um gain from one another and learn from. And I think I’ve hit the jackpot in that department. And literally I have so many role models to look up to. And there’s my understanding of the world and what are I guess what is the philosophy of our presence on this earth and what are we accomplishing and what are we going towards. I think that there would be no greater accomplishment

52:16 for me personally than to see that we’ve been able to put an end to a brutal dictatorship even one day earlier. So that has always um it’s something that pushes me forward a dayto-day basis. Um but also what I gain from it because at the end of the day I mean I might go through a lot of you know different issues, difficulties, hurdles you know everything that comes towards this but at the end of the day I could put my head on the pillar with with ease knowing that I’ve done my most to be part of something that’s so much bigger than myself for the future of Iran for the people of Iran for their democracy for you know human rights for all that. And so that has always um been something that I have. And the reality is I have gained so much when it comes to just understanding how as I said like understanding the concept of why we are on this earth and what is our responsibility but also in these pure humanitarian or humane values that are very um scarce these days in society. I mean because unfortunately our societies when you look at it it’s being run by egos and whatnot and so to be a part of a movement that is based on self-sacrifice more than anything else and and and honesty and unity that is something that um fills me with joy on daily basis. So I have literally gained a lot. Um I don’t look at the sacrifices that I’ve made in this process as things that I’ve lost. Um because I think even that has

54:07 I’ve also gained from th those two. So yeah, it is a path less followed. It’s not easy um on day-to-day basis. It is a friend of mine was telling me once she said you know there there there are different types of runners. There are those who run a marathon and there are those who run sprints. It’s everyone can run a sprint but not everyone can run in a marathon because that dayto-day dedication and making that decision to show up every single day that kind of um discipline and that kind of um I guess sacrifice. It’s really important and um that is what one of the things that allows the people of Iran to be able to trust this movement and in fact we have been able to rebuild a trust that has been taken because I think one of the worst crimes perpetrated by Humeni even though he’s committed many many crimes is um betraying people’s trust the trust of the people of Iran who with so much hope and so much trust they took part in a revolution for freedom and unfortunately that was you know stolen from them to rebuild that trust. It takes a lot of um time effort and you really have to work at it. But I think at the end of the day the people of Iran know that look a group or people who have dedicated you know some 20 30 40 years of their lives 50 years of their lives to the cause for freedom in Iran. They’re not in it to lie in their own pockets. There were easier ways to do that. They’re not in it for position. They’re not in it for wealth. Um they’ve they’re the ones who risk their lives every single day throughout these years uh for the freedom of the people of

55:59 Iran. So they don’t literally they don’t want anything except to see the freedom of the people of Iran. And that is what gives them that um support and that strength to be able to continuously resist and stand tall. Um I I see that in the messages of like political prisoners. Last about two weeks ago was the 61st anniversary of the formation of the people’s mojian organization of Iran. And something that was unprecedented I think was the number of messages that were smuggled out of prison um from political prisoners congratulating the movement on its anniversary and what it meant for them as political prisoners. and them emphasizing that these need to be broadcast, these need to be printed and begging for that to happen because the resistance I mean they have been giving these separate messages in the past. We have never aired them. We have never printed them anywhere because the risk attached on their lives. It literally is signing your own death wish by giving this message. But they are um you know they are truly inspirational and the fact that they want that these messages to be shared because they understand the effect that it has on society. They understand that in a society that’s living under the you know under the clutches of this regime that hope that glimmer of hope and that steadfast is what effect that it has and they understand that and so that’s why they want to give that message to to the people of Iran but it was very interesting to see for me to see how they interact with this movement and what hopes they have in it and why they have decided to align with it even at the price of their own lives. And I

57:54 think that is something that’s um very commendable and cherishable and um it’s a I think that is like the greatest asset that we have as a people. I want to talk about um your your emotions. Um like you’ve been through a lot in your life with your your father’s death. uh the your your country’s heritage Iran has been through a lot and uh I’m sure you experienced a lot of grief, anger, you know, exhaustion from from this, you know, thing going on for so many years. How do you keep your emotions in check and and you know, stay positive and have some optimism versus being consumed by anger and you know, revenge and this and that. Um can you maybe share with that like you know how you deal with these emotions that are very strong and powerful because that definitely also plays a role.

58:52 Um yeah there have been a lot many many obstacles and ups and downs in in my life but um I think two things have always helped. first is um seeing the bigger picture and knowing that I’m not the exception to the rule um in this that has really helped with a lot of the you know pain and suffering and whatnot. The other thing is that what my drive is not revenge, it’s um life, love and compassion for others. And so I think that that has always been um something that has been very helpful. Um rage and anger and revenge they can give you maybe like that adrenaline rush I guess in a way but it’s not going to be something that’s going to um give you the that strength to continue in a fight um that is so consistent and daytoday and continuous. Um, and at the end of the day, you know, it doesn’t give you that positive energy to move forward. Um, and I think that’s really really important in this fight. Um, because you if you want to fight for freedom and peace, it can’t be with the motor behind it has to be from, you know, that kind of a substance. It can’t be from anger and revenge and whatnot. So, I think that has been very important. And I think just the fact that I have been uh lucky enough to be surrounded by so much uh love and compassion and people who are so selfless and dedicated has always been a inspiration to me. Um I always consider myself part of a lucky generation for having grown up with this movement and having had that

1:00:47 opportunity. Um and to know these stories one by one of people who have made such made such huge leaps in their lives and sacrifices in their lives and they do it with such ease and with such compassion and such bravery and um that has always been a um inspiration to me. I mean we talked about before how like Iran and Persia has been a society a very rich culture a lot of smart people uh you know that lived both today and in the past one of the famous people that lived was his name was Roomie uh was a famous po a poet that he’s globally known not just in Iran is a very famous poet and he often wrote about love how how do you think like like Roomie I mean not just himself but like that message about love plays in Persian or Iranian culture. Do you feel like that’s you know a big part of the culture? I mean but let me ask you this. I mean I don’t know how familiar you are with Roomie. I don’t claim to be like the world’s expert or roomies. So, but like I I read some of his poems and read a little bit about his background and his history and very fascinating and you know he he’s a very inspirational character uh person in in my life because it’s interesting that you know he talked about things like religion and stuff. He talked about love versus like you know anger or war and stuff like that which is unusual in my opinion. Uh do you feel like that like message of love is widespread or do you think that’s only a few people like are followers of like room’s messages and so forth? No, I think that’s a big part of our culture actually. It’s not just room either. It’s like for instance if you look

1:02:38 not to brag about Iran’s culture but the reality is that we have a very very rich um culture of when it comes to literature and poetry we have um as you mentioned there’s sadi there’s hes um at the United Nations there’s this one poem it’s from sadi when it’s what that says that you know um all human beings are Um what would be the complete translation? But um all human beings are part of one body. when one part of the body is in pain. Um actually like before that actually there’s let me I’m translating in my head um but um it says um that you know all human beings are created from as one like are you united in what they’re created from and they are one in how they are created in creation. uh when the one part of the body is in pain, the rest of the body can’t sit uh or can’t just stand by. So that is like the message of that unity of human beings and that we are all connected to each other in so many different ways and we need to be part of each other’s pain but also we gain from each other’s wins too.

1:04:08 And I think that that has always been a part of Iran’s culture like um I’ve uh interestingly I I read you know when I when my father was still alive I was still a child so I couldn’t read his writings or anything like that but growing up and you know as I grew up I started reading some of the literature that he created and like the books that he had wrote and was interesting for me that every every article that I’ve seen that my father has written it starts with a a poem. a verse from a poem and that connection in Iran’s culture that’s really important and I think um yeah um the the people of Iran take a lot of pride in that history and that culture and and that that history has been always um a combination of struggles but also that firm belief that we can prevail. um we can overcome this and I think that has been very very important. So what message do you want people in in the audience to know or to understand about like everything we do about the situation or I think the most important thing is um to know that we can all make a difference no matter where we are, no matter what the circumstances is if we take on that responsibility and put it on our own shoulder instead of waiting. waiting for someone else to do something. I think that’s very important and fundamental. Um this is something that anyone in any circumstance they can [snorts] connect this into their daily life or their own issues. But I think that always it’s really important to first of all stand

1:06:02 for your beliefs, stand for your principles, don’t give in, don’t give up and put that responsibility on your own shoulder. Um, and you can accomplish anything if you put your mind to it. Um, all you have to do is never give up and just step by step pay the price for it. Um, everything comes with a price. It’s not going to be free. It’s not going to be easy. But if you’re willing to pay that price on daily basis, even if it’s like a centimeter each day, you will be able to push forward and you will be able to accomplish so much. Um for those who are interested maybe in um learning more about the resistance and the situation of Iran um you can um visit the websites of the resistance. There is the NCR um NCRI which is NCR-an.org. Um there’s also the um women NCRI for those who are interested more in women’s rights and the the fight of the women of Iran. There’s the WNCRI.org or um website um to learn more about Mariam Maji who is my inspiration in life um you can visit mariam-bravi.com or mariamforchange.com and um if you’d like to get involved um if you are in the US um you can reach out to organization of Romanian-American communities it’s oac.org or it is um they have chapters in over 40 states, so you’re probably covered there. Actually, this week on um September 22nd and September 23rd, they are holding a rally in New York at Doc Hammershield in front of the United Nations um uh in regards to the human rights situation in Iran against the executions and to say that the solution to Iran is neither war nor appeasement is to support the people of Iran. Um, and they have a lot of activities both in different states and

1:07:54 on Capitol Hill. So, reach out to them. Um, if you’re anywhere else, you could reach out to uranfreedom.org and they would put you in contact with local chapters. There’s also October 10th marks the world day against um, the death penalty. So um with that uh the Iranian community actually in Europe they are organizing marathons um 5k marathons. It’s walk and run. Uh it’s more charitable work than anything else but um to raise awareness on the executions in Iran and to try to gain they’re gathering funds for the activity that they have in this regard. So even if you can’t join in person, maybe you could join by, you know, making a contribution to one of their organizations that is um organizing this. The website that they have is run for free, run apa-C.org. Um feel free to, you know, show your solidarity u with that um because it does really mean uh a lot to the families. Um, a lot of those organizing this or this this campaign or this marathon, they’re actually of vict families of those who’ve been killed by the regime or some of them are ex- political prisoners who have been able to escape th those circumstances but they continue to try to be the voice of others and try to help those in under these circumstances. Well, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing, you know, about your experiences, your mission, your activism, and the importance of women’s rights in Iran and everywhere else in the world. Um, I I learned so much from this conversation

1:09:44 and I feel like we can probably talk for another 10 hours at least because there’s so much to talk about. And I said, I’m very fascinated in Iranian Persian culture. is it’s so rich and I’ve been to Persian restaurants and the food is amazing. Like it is I I love Persian food and it’s really great. So, thank you so much for coming on the show. I It meant a lot to me. I was very excited to have it and you spoke really well today. So, thank you for everything that you’re doing. Um is there any final message you like to share with the audience before we head off or No, I think I spoke enough today. So thank you very much for this time. Definitely. Thank you so much.